Wow, Deb. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. Of course he is angry. Yes, there sure is. They will learn not to talk about problems and not to seek help for problems, because its obviously not a safe place and they could be publicly humiliated next. The defrocking was plenty scandalous all on its own, but RC Sr. turned it into a full blown debacle. You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). However, I also get nauseated if I drink more than 8 ounces of wine. Welcome to TWW. It was not (so far as I know) used to get rid of people as punishment for disagreeing with the leaders. It had such a devastating impact on my husband that he doesn't drink alcohol. Even pre-internet, a person could lug out their printed Yellow Pages phone book and look up the names of psychologists and so on. He was fired from the local/regional, and the local/regional bore the lawsuit and payout of the woman. Trying to save children from the hell of an actively alcoholic parent is a good thing. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee), wine is a good gift of the Lord I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking (R.C. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Velour wrote: Thus if one interprets RC Sproul Jr.s actions as not persevering then according to what they teach Sproul was never a believer. Lea wrote: That would probably fall to the individual him or herself and/or their family. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. BFM2000 is not, to my knowledge, PENAL, rather just substitutionary. These evangelical arguments that its in the Bible and that settles it get very old. from her when she kept on and on telling us that we were wrong to take the view we took about codependency. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. @ Velour: He was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a flat tire on I-469. Perhaps it would be wise for RC2 to be under the oversight of a completely different church where he could be viewed as just another church member rather than RC1s son and the failed pastor. Thanks ever so much. 4. tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. And money. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. I said, as you know, that he should lose his job. I was about to defend you, until I saw the word livers in there. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. EVERYBODYS DOING IT! My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. God bless you and your friend in every way, and so glad you are here, Deb. I have worked in an alcoholic facility and have lost loved ones to alcoholism. Eventually, when loved ones look the other way and/or enable the behavior of people who have drinking problems, a crisis will rear its ugly head, as it did in this case. More importantly hes got to want it because he loves his family. That wouldnt be me. Im not giving him a pass on any abusive behavior. so ridiculous. Intervention only works when the abuser is willing to submit to a program. I am not making excuses. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! Remember too, that Paul also confronts the church when they do not welcome the repentant brother back. What does that mean? He needs to make amends to all of the people he hurt and to confess publicly at the churches where he pastored about the damage he did. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. While Intox or Controlled Substance: Passenger Under 18. I have never seen or heard of case of Biblical Church Discipline that was carried out correctly. As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I don't appreciate your "he who is without sin" diatribe. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. He did get booted out of office and will most ptobably lose his law license . For all that you talked about how you knew about recovery programs, you showed a lack of knowledge about Al-Anon (for the family and friends of problem drinkers) and said to Lisa who posted here what they would tell her to do if she went, including that sponsors would advocate separation. (AKA He stops taking showers, the leak stops, think Ill have another Drink) Took a water-collapsed ceiling, him harassing me over the phone, and a resulting court fight (with him suing me for as much as he could and yelling at the judge in the courtroom) before things settled down. I am not sure why this is found so disgusting. \ Okay, maybe a little anger too. The old playing the gossip card. Hitting bottom helps. I meant no offense to Claire, nor did I intend to pick on her specifically. It should also be noted that removing someone from the church, for a time, does not mean they are declared an unbeliever. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). He has suffered tragedies, yes. . that if a person who is in peril holds his hand out to Our Lord, Our Lord takes his hand and saves him, too many hate preachers out there, Im afraid, so discouraging and spreading despair instead of hope and all I can do is ask Why? when all around them is life and light, but they cannot see. I believe our church greatly reduced the misery of the woman who died of alcoholism. You have taken this quote out of context . That would be difficult, but more likely to lead to a successful recovery, ISTM. To read about the extent of his sins and abuses is so depressing. They absolutely cannot be shamed, manipulated, coerced, convinced, or reasoned into sobriety. Sproul Jr.s excommunication. One of the only reasons I came back to this thread was to add something about your insistence on people getting treatment (treatment outside of a church). Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? You stated you have been a ligonier for years, so I assume that means you agree with Sproul when he stated a few years ago that Jesus was the ultimate obscenity. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. This rare disease is profoundly disabling and usually results in an early death. We are so grateful that you made it. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. Here are photos of my injuries a few days after the horrific tragedy. Edit Search New Search Filters (1) To get better results, add more information such as Birth Info, Death Info and Locationeven a guess will help. The crack I heard was his leg bone splitting lengthwise down his leg. Isnt it ironic (and beyond sad) that this thread IS about a church leader. The sort of people who are roundly criticized by unbelievers all the time. The church is a body of Christ followers. Sproul Jr. has done. He had two children in the car, and we could have been caught in a head-on collision at any time. :0| Im not sure what the Christology OR the Trinitarian doctrines are of the Ligonier group, What does that mean? If it is incorrect then Im not seeing it. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, & reminding people to give, if they can, to help those in need on TWW, also giving of her own resources. The church frequently blows it on things like this, without proper training and guidance. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. I already am apostate in the SBC because I believe God gifts men and women in the sharing of Gods word. All. You might like to listen to them. I would not doubt it all. Not that grief for the lost of his first wife and his father ought to allow him to misbehave while remaining in pastoral ministry, and it certainly doesnt excuse him from a good hard look at things he did while Denise was still living (especially when she hadnt been diagnosed as terminal), but what hes doing is classic signs of grief gone metastatic. Christiane wrote: But here may be a hint. But with my Christian friends and family I am often second guessed. Welcome to TWW! The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. I think its valid to point out that both these men were defrocked by their churches, and that we should be concerned about what they subsequently say and do in Jesuss name. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? In this mans case, the police authorities, legal professionals, and the public have observed boughs of demonstrated impairment and the use of Improper judgement. The key part to what Deborah added was the addict has to want to be helped., Ill admit to being too lazy to scroll back up the page to read Barbs original comments, but I dont recall her asking for anyone to be publicly humiliated (?). 1. Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. Kathleen Melanie (Littlefield) Sproul died April 9, 2021, at her home at the age of 69. My problem isnt with the Bible, its with your lack of knowledge about how to treat addictions in the Christian community. So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. It is always a pleasure to read her advice on legal/medical/mental matters, as her experience clearly shows. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. Caused the police to go on chases all over our parish, physically attacked police officers, lied to and about police officers. ignore the fact that he was, in fact, treating his depression. is pretty controlling. A further thought, Velour. At that point, it makes our comments nothing but gossip. He totaled many of my grandparents vehicles. I would ask that you not use it again though. Had therapy and continues to do so. I know people, who are close to me, involved with St. Peters I love and miss dearly. But those whove been paying close attention over the years have known that hes got a serious drinking problem. (P.S. That is an important element here. From the time I was a kid up until my early 30s, I saw various psychiatrists and a psychologist or two along the way. Unfortunately, it is usually an entirely different story getting those scenarios to take place. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be violated in any way.. It was as a college freshman that R.C. So I was only saying what the Bible says. I have a hole in my skull about the size of a quarter just Bove and in front of my ear. I am sure that Sproul Sr. paid for that. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. Sigh. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Heres the pattern thats been repeated many times over the years: RC commits some grievous transgression, gets busted, is held accountable, confesses and repents, but then is quickly shown to have simply used a show of confession and repentance as a means to an end. The household finances are frequently a wreck too. Velour wrote: (not that any of us arent being transparent in this virtual thing, here. It would be good if she could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though. It works some of the time. Part of the real men drink beer and bourbon are two favorites at church picnics. Bridget wrote: Or for the other secret alcoholics in the pews who are struggling and ashamed and who need help? I learned an important lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when Iwas young. I believe God gave me a second chance at life, and I am so grateful! I am opposed to hauling out the hurting people argument when and if it is an incorrect application of the idea for several reasons. The pejoratives about alkies (theyre called alcoholics) and other put downs (my reading comprehension for instance, etc. Changed lives. I wish I could get them out of it, as I cant even visit I am so appalled by it. THEN, the problem grows even larger. Its hard here to put everything in words, but I really dont think we are very far apart on this issue. Sproul Sr. will experience MUCH MORE suffering than he is right now. Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, United States, Altamonte Springs, Seminole County, Florida, United States, edited the Biography and Status Indicators, https://www.newspapers.com/clip/15838272/mayre_a_yardis_sproul_death_notice/, Obituary published in the Orlando Sentinel, 15 Dec 2017, Presbyterian Church in the United States of America Ministers. It sounds so evil. Being a believer, in that crowd, has little to do with belief and everything to do with appearances. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. It never came as most of them immediately started looking for the next shiny thing. His scandals go back approximately two decades. Not here to preach. Please feel free to skip over reading them since they bother you. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. Sprouls alcoholism and the fact hes a jerk are two separate issues. In other words, my daughters brain tumor was a disease that was not caused by her behavior or the behavior of those around her. Im not getting the disconnect going on in this thread. I am furious at how our culture tolerates substance abuse as much as we do. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died. Usually a Churchill Cocktail about 1/4 inch (or a cm) of whiskey at the bottom of the glass, then fill the rest with water; dilutes the mix down to less than 3% alcohol. @ T J Mercer: I really doubt most alcoholics CAN go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days. People do not drink large amounts habitually and still live your best life now. Weve already discussed this up the thread. Yes, he shouldnt have been on Ashley Madison, but hed lost his wife to cancer and was probably lonely. It doesnt take any effort to destroy such a lame excuse. Since you have a background in this, would you be willing to assist me? Sr is 100% responsible for keeping him in the pulpit, both via Ligonier conferences and through his personal influence. To me, the urgency should be to get him out of ministry leadership entirely. Im wondering what it means for people like me who are members of SBC churches that are not (yet) Calvinistic. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. I was raised with the reality that people know what you are doing and it all comes back on you-at school, at church, in your social circle, on the job and wherever. Thanks Gram3 for your explanation of the damage that R.C. From 1 Cor. or a drunkard, [substance abuse] an immoral person, [sexual immorality?] It is also true that there is an even higher standard for church pastors and leaders a number of scriptures address this issue. I remember a few times (fewer than the number of excommunications, of course), someone was also publicly welcomed back at a worship service and biblically restored to the body. This is inexcusable and seriously hurts your credibility. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Why would they have to go to a church, all so a pastor could do that same Googling to give them the names and addresses? If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. We are very fortunate to have these services available for people who cant afford them. And one thing an alky can sniff out in a heartbeat is an ignorant person trying to give them advice. they simply enjoy all kinds of beverages because they pleasurable. Being around others in a church setting may help resolve a need for companionship, but Im not seeing how it would cure somebody of a condition that would likely need medical intervention or the attention or professionals. If anything, youve shown a nasty attitude on this thread to a few others, and now to me. I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! Sproul Jrs spiritually abusive treatment of church members and whole families. And I have contempt when people excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind; that helps no one. I dont know whether theres a formal definition, or even consensus, on what makes an alcoholic. Eventually I found assurance in my peace. I am so sick of hearing excuses. In Matthew 18, Christ Jesus Himself taught on dealing with believers who are living lives of outright disobedience. If I have said something that has caused you harm, please let me know. Although no church is perfect, some have lousy ideas about caring. You can get a taste for it in Jrs self-obsessed novella that he published on his ministry web site many years ago, Ligonier Tales. It is not predestined it is chosen. My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. Oh, so true. 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