Its also been mirrored on my channel, you can go and check that out. As I showed earlier, you have people like Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, who were firmly I would not call them Catholic. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. Enoch and Elijah would be an example. Now Steve mentioned and many other Protestants allude to Matthew 1:24-25, which says When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. According to Methodist scholar David A. deSilva, New Testament authors weave phrases and recreate lines of arguments from Apocryha books into their new texts. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. If she was immaculately conceived, wouldnt she have known that she was the version from Isaiah 7:14? But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? So lets just stick to scripture. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. The last one to be accepted was the bodily assumption of Mary. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. He might bring it up in his rebuttal. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive story. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. And Steve has not ruled that out. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast Lets see how much we can get through. It has nothing to do with Mary being the ark. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. Though, I will say the Septuagint was completed only within a few centuries, possibly even one century, by the time of Jesus crucifixion. And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. We have to remember that. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. Lets debate the Apocrypha! EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? It is used this way consistently in the New Testament, as well as in the Septuagint where it is used over a hundred times, such as the Sister Kingdoms of Israel and Judah who worship the same one true God of the Old Testament. The night before that, we did an examination of conscience together. He then went on to kick five field goals in the Bills 29-10 win over the Miami Dolphins in the AFC championship game, helping Buffalo get to their third consecutive Super Bowl. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. Okay. So these Marian Dogmas are not optional or fitting for the faithful Catholic to believe, but are required and binding to the Catholic to remain in good standing in communion with the Roman Catholic church, despite them all contradicting God breathed scripture. Okay. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. Or are they all good? Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. 878 talking about this. The fact that Mary died doesnt prove that she committed a sin any more than the fact that Jesus died does not prove that he inherited sin or committed a sin. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. Make an Appointment Yeah. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. And I showed in my arguments that his claim that adelphei can only mean uterine sister of the same mother, or figurative, are simply not held up. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. I think it says a lot about you all that you would take your time, all 735 of you, to be here. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. Do you still have it? I agree with what that person teaches. With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. The fact that this is used of Mary is very unusual. And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. Since this dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts the purpose of a biblical assumption. I would argue that the dogmas are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture and they do not affect salvation. Were going to move into a time of closing statements. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? He was human. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. Abraham believed God, and it was credited or imputed to him as righteousness so that he might be the father of all who believed that righteousness might be credited or imputed to them.. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. Book now for free with CMG Booking. He mentioned about the Septuagint. I do talk about how much evidence that Greek word has for the immaculate conception, and I also note in my book its use in the Book of Sirach. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? Well the thing is, in both cases in the Septuagint and in Lukes gospel, theyre both in the perfect passive of participle, so theyre being used the same way. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. Okay. This is really great. This is not the rule. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. Brant Pitre has some great work on Mary as well for people to check out. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? This is how God as savior is used in both testaments. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. Sure. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. Agreed. But it doesnt demand for that though. Oh, youre on mute. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. This is not a commitment to lend. Thanks for the super chat. A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. Okay. 0 (0 ratings) Leave a review. We ought to do it. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. So again, argument by exception. And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . But I think so far, this has shown that Steve has not been able to apply scripture in an unambiguous way to show the Marian Dogma was contradicted. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. Regarding her bodily assumption that Pope declared infallibly, if anyone should dare willfully to deny that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Okay. They wanted people following scripture even if they were wrong. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. So thats all up there as well. While the Greek word adelphos, translated brothers, can have numerous meetings in scripture, the specific Greek word adelphi, translated sisters, only has two. Christie claims that Jesus declaration to the Pharisees about all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar was actually an endorsement of the Protestant Old Testament canon. I mean, I have to really think about that. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. Well, not necessarily. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. Dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts purpose... Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, who were firmly I would have to through. Romans as we were going as sleep last night been mirrored on my channel you. 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